The Power of Rest & Reflection with Marissa Levin

Today I was joined by Marissa Levin, who has had an amazing, huge, impactful career, but one of the things that was so striking about our conversation is the way that she gives herself permission and encourages others to step back and go within. She's somebody who really embodies navigating the energy of who am I, what role am I showing up for, and do I need to slow down and reflect before I step back into massive impact? Join us, it's a juicy one. Your nervous system sets the tone. Your energy speaks before you do. How you show up is the culture. I'm Dr. Tam's in Aster and this is Hot Habits, Conscious Leadership in Action. My guest today has spent 35 years building businesses, breaking molds and proving that you can scale to millions without losing your soul. Meet Marissa Levin, five-time entrepreneur, best-selling author and one of the top 200 biggest voices in leadership. Marissa is the architect of the I-5 Conscious Leadership Curriculum and the Joyful Leadership Model. And she's on a lifetime mission to help leaders build cultures where people feel genuinely safe, seen and supported. Today we're going to dive into her remarkable journey of shedding identities, finding permission to rest, and what it truly means to lead with both strategy and spirit. Buckle up, this one's going to go deep. Thanks for joining me. I'm so happy to be here and thank you to Exchange for bringing us together. Yay, I actually have interviewed John and Adair, so we've got lots of juicy conversations loaded up for Hot Habits. At the start of every Hot Habits conversation, I asked my guests to bring an object with them, something that represents a Hot Habit in their life. And I see it as a way of bringing leadership out of theory and into everyday reality. So tell me what object did you bring with you today and why did you choose it? So the first one, I'm a Libra. So Libras always have our time making decisions, right? Because we're always weighing and balancing. So this one says create and it always sits at my desk, right? And it reminds us and reminds me that in every moment we have the power to create our future, our outcome, we are all creators in our life, right? So that's the ultimate habit of knowing that in every moment we are creating. And then I also have Kuan Yin, who is the goddess of compassion. So for me, I live with the model of Do No Harm and just always remembering that in every moment we can choose to be in that place of compassion. I love that. I first came across her when I was in a Buddhist group in Ohio, and it was a led by a Buddhist nun, and we studied books and meditated for about half an hour every week. And one of the women in the group was diagnosed with cancer. And I gave her a book on the role of the mind in illness. And as thanks, she gave me actually a necklace with Kuan Yin on it. And that was the first time I'd ever heard of her. And I still got it. It's a beautiful yellow heart with a beautiful painting of her on her, led the necklace. So that's just so wonderful. And create too. I think, you know, one of the things that that makes me think of is the sort of underlying theme of create is the sort of personal power, right? So that when we feel like the world is shing around us and we don't have control, one of the things that I take from the word create is I can, you know, using the language we both know from exchange, pause, notice, choose, and create a different reality for myself by changing the way I'm thinking, changing the way I'm feeling, changing what I'm doing in this moment, right? Yeah. And actually mentioning the idea of being in control. So I write in a journal every morning, I have a reflection gratitude journal, and then I have my blank pages journal. And this morning, Tamsen, the prompt said, I am in control. And I always write under the prompt. And I wrote my feelings of my thoughts, of my actions, of my decisions, of how I let other people impact me, of the people that I have in my life, and what my circle looks like. And I just laundry listed like all of these things that I do have control over, right? And they're all in control. But it was such a great prompt. And the fact that you brought that up, I mean, let there's, you know, no mistakes, right? That is beautiful synchronicity. I love that. So one of the things as I was reading your bio and, you know, LinkedIn is, you know, there's a real theme you, I sort of pick up from you about kind of redefining and shifting, you know, whether it's, you know, talking about it as like shedding an identity or, you know, redefining yourself in terms of like letting go of revenue and defining yourself by something deeper, for example, or releasing an identity that you've held on to. One of the questions sort of in the space that I would love to dig into a little bit is, you know, what identity was the hardest one for you to let go of and was like, what created the permission to finally release it? Wow. That's such a, that's a beautiful question. I will say that the hardest identity that I've had trouble letting, letting go of, you know, I have two sons and we've talked a lot about motherhood and young me, 25 and 28 and my 28-year-old just got married in October. Congratulations. Thank you. I mean, honestly, like my whole life really has been about shaping these humans and especially having boys, making sure that they were moving through the life, through their life with and through the world with an open heart, with a strong connection between head and heart, really feeling, you know, and being very emotionally grounded, being able to have very healthy, supportive and constructive relationships with women and the way that they show up for the partners in their lives. And it just, it's just something that really, that's kind of what I embodied from even before I had kids and then when I, you know, I just knew that that was something that I, that really meant a lot to me. And I think, you know, now that my son has gotten married, I underestimated the emotional impact that it would have on me in terms of my identity. I mean, I, I am in profound gratitude because my 25 and 28-year-old and my 25-year-old happens to be home for the weekend and it's absurd working. But like, they are fully launched, you know, they're not just financially launched and physically and logistically launched, but they are emotionally launched. And, you know, and I'm grateful it all turned out the way that I had prayed and, and, and, and intended through the types of parenting that I did. But I definitely underestimated the emotional impact on me and there, and I've had to go through some grieving, you know, on, and like what that means for me as I move into the next, you know, version and, and phase of my life. So I think letting go of that identity, and I mean, you know that I've a very deep spiritual path and I've done so much, you know, like, work around like reincarnation and past lives and, and, and all of that. And, you know, we bring a lot of karma into our existing life and it's been told to me many, many, many times that my children had been my children in past lives. Okay, like, and that's not always the normal thing because sometimes we have our soul family and people take on different, you know, roles and personas and, you know, relationships. My children have been my children in many, many, many past lives. And I've had, we have had a lot of suffering and a lot of pain. And so this lifetime that I've learned was meant for me to fulfill that sole contract of basically making sure that they are okay and that they, that they are thriving. Like, this was the lifetime that that was supposed to happen. And I felt that as I was raising them, like, I just, you know, that this was the life that was like going to bring them to completion to be able to live these, these completely fulfilling lives. And I can feel that on the, in the soul, like on the soul level for me of that completion and there's been grief around it for me. Like, you know, I'm like, you know, it's all come to fruition. So who am I without pouring myself into my children? Has been, you know, a huge thing. And I, yes, I've built multiple companies and I've shed those identities. And both my parents are gone. And I've helped both of them transition. And so those identities, you know, are have been shed, right? And so I'm at this blank space, I'm at what they call on the Buddhist world, the Bardo, which is kind of like that liminal state of, you know, in in between state. And I am, I am in that space of like understanding what's next, but the universe is giving me so many signs and synchronicities that I have a lot of clarity now about like what's next, but I've been resting. And I think you probably have noticed my absence in exchange, like, I've been nowhere, right? I have been resting. And now I'm ready, you know, like spring, I'm ready to like re-emerge. I would love to dig into the rest a little bit more. A few years ago, I came across the, the, the nap ministry and, you know, all the writings. And, and also a book called, I think it's called laziness of the myth or laziness as a lie, you know, in the way that our society is constructed, particularly with the nap ministry, you know, built the world on the bodies of black women, the effort of black women. But this idea that rest is something that we, you know, need to fight for and make a priority in our lives rather than the kind of one of the things having grown up in Europe, I've now spent about half my life in the US and half in the UK is here, you know, 70% of Americans check their email on vacation, right? They get less than two weeks holiday a year, you know, I was given 10 weeks unpaid maternity leave, you know, when I was here in the US, you know, there's a sense of like, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead, you know, or I will like relax on spring break, or I will finally have fun when I retire, rather than like, can't we build a life where, you know, we close our laptops at 5 p.m. or we, you know, leave work at noon on Friday, whatever it is, right? And sort of rather than like this sort of eventual thing that we get to. So for you with rest, like, what did you have to kind of work hard to take permission for rest? Or was it sort of a response to burnout? Like, what were the things that kind of got you to the place of going? Our rest is really important and needs to take up a bigger space in my life. Well, I think energetically, I follow the seasons, right? Like some people go through the, you know, the year and like, they're lit, lit, lit, their energy is the same from season to season. I think I am someone who really follows the energy of the seasons and I'm a Libros born in fall, right? So, you know, the shedding happens in the fall and that's happened to be, you know, when the wedding was and, you know, that interesting coincidence for that as well. And then when winter came, I really kind of went in my, in word, right? And I kind of hibernated. And I just, I hit this space. I didn't wake up one day and be like, okay, it's time to rest. It really was the shock to my system after, you know, the high of the wedding and all the emotional, you know, the emotional high with that and the holidays and all of that. And then all of that passed. And I was just like, wow, I've been pouring myself into this wedding and this emotional state for the last two years during the engagement and planning it with them and just, you know, being all invested and all of that. And I just, I came to this clearing where I'm like, okay, so now what, right? I mean, my parents are gone. My kids are launched and I'm in, you know, in my home that I live by myself and I just hit this wall of you have to figure out who you are and what's next. And there's a lot of grief that is going to have to come along with that. And that's really what I've been processing. And, and I just have, you know, turned it over to God and turned it over to the universe to trust that whatever's meant for me next is going to present itself and will unfold in the way that it should. Somehow, you know, as much as I've evolved and how many different like lives I feel like I've had even in this life, somehow the universe has taken care of me, right? It's gotten me through and, and I, and I trust that even at this age, at 58, you know, I, like, my best life's ahead of me. Like, I definitely nailed it. My best life's ahead of me. And I, I don't know what it's going to look like, but I do know that it's, it's going to be very rich and abundant and prosperous and impactful. And I'm ready to kind of step back into it as we move into spring, right? Like, it's like, there goes my energy, right? Yeah. No, I love that. And there's a couple of things I would love to reflect on. One is, you know, so I'm certified in Areveda. And I often use a lot of the Areveda kind of principles in my coaching. And one of the things that I've always loved about Areveda, and when I, when I studied it, suddenly made sense to me, like you, in the winter, I always want to retreat and journal and slow down. And I always found this like, you know, new years, particularly in the northern hemisphere, that I'm supposed to be January 1st, where I was to launch into this new, all the new habits and behaviors. And it always felt so energetically misaligned with me. And, you know, my whole business has been around habits. So this whole, I'm supposed to launch all these new products and programs in January. I was always like, no, I want to be sitting on the sofa like with a cup of tea and a blanket and a journal, you know, where in September, you know, so I was in academia for years and September to me, which in Areveda is associated with the energy, which is movement and shift and creation and launching. That beginning of the year to me always felt much more energetically aligned. And when I started studying Areveda, I was like, oh, that's why September has always felt to me like the time to birth something new. So I love that you reflected on that. And I think, and you know, and the other thing that was, that was striking about what you said was this, the sort of, the allowing yourself to pay attention to what your body needs and learning how to, you know, as women, we often are defined by our relationships to others or our roles to others. We are the sister, the daughter, the mother, the wife, the parent. And when those roles all suddenly, waft away, shed, it's suddenly, who am I when I'm not defined in reference to other? And for me, that, like, I started getting that during my divorce, you know, and then all my three kids left home in the space of three months, which is a sort of shocking, you know, shift I had. And say that same thing of like, who am I when I'm not defined by the roles that I've, that I've embodied for so many years? And I think, right, that sort of that to me, I think is something I would love to dig in more to that with you about like what that taught you about, you know, how you show up in your business and in your relationships as well as in the rest of your life. I mean, I feel like it's almost like, you know, we often lean on success as the thing that teaches us, right? Like I did this thing and this taught me how to build the business, make the money, make the relationships survive. But I also think there's something really powerful about the construction, the contraction, the walking away that creates a different way of learning. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It does. And one of my most important teachers who I feel like not that I just follow, but I really feel that I embody him as Ram Das. And one of the most important movies in my life has been his movie becoming nobody. I don't know if you know about that movie, but basically, you know, where it's his documentary of his life, but he talks about how when we're born, you know, we immediately go into what he calls somebody training. And you know, when I look back and I even, you know, I look at my own children and we put them in preschool at like, you know, age two and age three, right? At that early of an age, they learn to compare themselves to other people, right? Because they're looking at people who are just like, you know, their age and their size and all of that. And they're in these rooms and they're learning and playing with these people. And that is where they first learn about comparison. Oh, that one shorter, that one's taller, that one's fatter, that one's skinnier, that one has brown hair, that one has, you know, light hair, right? Like all the comparison starts at the unconscious level at such a young age. And then obviously, you know, our parents and we did the same thing. We are thinking that we're doing all the right things because we are reinforcing how special they are, right? They're so special, they're so unique. They have all these unique talents. They're such, you know, even at that early age, oh, such an early reader, such a great reader. Oh, sits in his chair, pays attention, always such a good runner. Look, he's only five years old. He's such a great basketball player. Like we're doing that. We are shaping them into their specialness, right? And into their somebody-ness and into their individuality. And so this is what happens starting at the earliest ages of being compared to other people. And then you, you know, you go through life and you've become somebody, right? And, you know, you've gotten the great grades and you're on the varsity teams and you've gotten into the great schools and then you land the great job and then you build the great company. And so it's natural that as humans, right, as we human, and I love to use the word human as a verb, right? I often say that humaning is messy and complicated and difficult as we human through this life school and through this curriculum on earth. We have to unlearn that we are actually not really any more special than anybody else, right? Like that we're really all connected and we're all, we all end up going back into that same place of where we started, where all we want to do is just be loved. Like at the end of the day, at the end of the day, as humans, the only thing that we all really, really want that our soul wants is to love and to be loved, right? So your question about like, you know, shedding all of the identities, for me, everything I do is rooted in the soul's evolution, right? The spiritual class, the now it's the unbecoming, right? So I, you know, I've had all these companies and that's been such a ride and I've like provided jobs and security and growth for, you know, many, many, many people and I've helped organizations and agencies fulfill their missions and do all of that wonderful stuff. And I coach and, you know, build leaders and build corporations and that has been my vehicle for, you know, spiritual awakening, right? For my, for the evolution of my soul. But at the end of the day, like, you know, I look, I'm just always in that place of like, I want you to love and be loved. Like that's like, it's just, it just doesn't go any further, you know, for me. I love that. And I, you know, the first question that jumps to my mind is you say that is because of, you know, the work I do around habits, supporting conscious leadership is what is a habit that you practice or that you facilitate with the people that you work with that helps remind people to get back to that when they're getting stuck on, you know, I had a client who could only really understand motivating his employees by money. And, and it didn't always work. And, and I, you know, we had so many conversations and it was a really, it was a very tough, um, evolution for him to get beyond that and to sort of understand that, you know, values, uh, family, community, uh, respect, legacy were, were, were what drove a lot more people and it wasn't just the money, right? Um, and so I'm quite, I'm curious, like what, what do you do on a regular basis and what do you do with your clients to help them get back to that, that cool lesson about love? Okay, so, so two things I want to address. So your client that felt that they, that he was confused on why not everybody was motivated about money, okay? Um, so I'm an Enneagram expert, um, deeply trained and heavily certified and trained in a ton of stuff with the Enneagram and I bring it into all of my client engagements. Um, so the, the, that client, if he would have had, uh, self awareness and if he would have had more awareness of who his team is, like, he would know there are nine types of the Enneagram, he would know that there are only a couple of the types of Enneagram types that are actually motivated by money, okay? So the achiever number three is motivated by money. Number eight, the challenger is motivated by money, like, uh, you know, one of the clients that I have where I coach multiple, um, sea levels as well as people who are moving into the sea level, their chief revenue officer, he is, he is an off the chart eight and he should be because he's running an entire sales team. He hates the lose. He loves to win, you know, he loves the challenge, he loves a financial challenge. He wants to be at the top of the leaderboard, like he's going to be motivated by money, okay? People who are twos, which are the givers, people who are sickses, who are loyalists and really focused on security, compliance, risk avoidance, people who are peacemakers, people who are perfectionists, um, that, you know, are the ones who, like, they just want to get everything perfect. Guess what? They're not motivated by money. There's not enough money in the world that you could throw at them that is going to get them excited to be on a leaderboard, right? So this is why understanding the personalities of the people that you work with and people that work for you and understanding their core motivations, that's what's going to help you be a better leader. So I just wanted to address that, okay? Like, like, why that, why that person failed, because he was applying what was important to him to the people that worked for him and they, they didn't value the same thing. I actually ended up firing him because he wasn't willing to do the inner work. Well, yeah. So self-awareness, as we know, is the basis of all, of all great leadership. So to get back to your question about what I've done with my clients to, like, help them get to that place of self-love, um, doing no harm, love for their people, creating psychological safety. You know, I was brought in, um, we were talking about this earlier. I was brought in to be a chief human resources officer for a $40 million client that was just literally, like, one fire. I mean, they were just in complete chaos. And I was brought in as the chief culture and chief human resources officer to reestablish psychological safety. I inherited a team of seven incredible HR executives that, when I got there, they were completely traumatized. And they were literally, like, deer and headlights, rather than going in and, like, trying to get initiatives moving because they were completely stuck. Um, the first thing that I had to do was to let them know that they were safe. Like, at the end of the day, like, there were going to be, there were, you know, business runs at the speed of trust, business runs at the speed of psychological safety. Okay. So I, I remember being one zoom. It was a remote company. And I remember being one zoom with the seven women who I never met them. And I, and I could see like the trauma in their eyes. And they were just like staring at me. Like, what are you going to do with us? Right? Like, it was just, and, and, and I just, I had to emotionally connect with them. I had to personally relate them. I had to let them know. Like, I see you. I am you. You are safe. I've got your back. So that, you know, for me, with all of my leaders, whether I'm doing one-on-one coaching, whether I'm doing group coaching, whether I'm doing retreats, whether I'm doing workshops, whether I'm leaving a team of seven executives, for me, making sure that they feel seen and understood. And in order to do that, I have to be acutely aware of how well I'm listening, right? And how well I am just really dialed into them, putting my thoughts aside, putting my agenda aside, but being fully, fully present for the people that I am leading and guiding, and letting them know that like they are safe with me in every moment. That's really, I don't know if you would call it a habit, but that's like how I show up, you know, as a leadership coach, strategist, whatever, you know. Yes, I mean, I think the habit that I would say is that you are intently and acutely aware of the container that you create for people, and that when people have, you know, had trauma, had difficult experience, have had bosses that have made them feel unsafe, or that vulnerability is a weakness, rather than a strength, or that, you know, being overly monitored and tracked, which is another thing that I see as well, as the people who are overly monitored and tracked end up feeling much more on edge, like it's like, you don't trust me to do the thing, you know, if, you know. And so I think the way I would describe that habit is the you sort of slowing down, creating the container, making the container safe. And it's a little bit like when I was first training as a speaker, and I did all these courses through the NSA and so on, one of the trainings I had was from somebody who'd been an actor, and it was really about how to use the stage and the space. And one of the tricks or the tools that he taught us was to not march around the room, which is what I've done as an academic, because I'm a sort of verbal processor, and I'm 80's, you know, as marching, was to stand still, and look into the audience and make eye contact with people in the audience, particularly when you were sharing something really important or vulnerable or emotional or impactful. And that was a really interesting skill, and it really changed how I connected with people in that way, is that that's slowing down and looking somebody in the eye, which I do in regular life, but, you know, you forget sometimes in the context of business and facilitating and speaking, to treat people in that same way. So I love that sense of how you build a container, right? And it sounds to me that you, you know, have done that in all areas of your life, in the building the container, whether it's, you know, your morning practices, you know, we're in WhatsApp groups where you share these wonderful videos of you dancing and moving, right? And like the taking care of your physical body, the taking care of your physical space, the way you've raised your sons. One of the things that, you know, that I've been thinking a lot about, I'm in an AI mastermind, and of course, you know, and my brother is the head of International Business Development and Thropic, which is amazing. So I'm thinking a lot about AI and how we are using it and how it's going to impact, you know, what we do as coaches, as facilitators, as leaders, as, you know, people who are, you know, working with people to help them show up and lead teams and organizations. Where do you see conscious leadership and AI colliding over the next few years? I love that question, and I want to just backtrack for one thing that you mentioned, that as leaders that only create the containers, and I suppose this could answer your question about AI as well. But as leaders, you know, when I was building my first company, and I, you know, I had close to 90 people with information experts, and we were in the office. This was long before COVID, right? So we were, we were in the office, although we allowed telecommuting, and that was, you know, very progressive at the time. I remember being, you know, the CEO, and I always looked at it as not just chief executive officer, but chief emotional officer, chief energy officer, chief empathy officer, like that's how I define CEO. And it's important for leaders to know, and one of my favorite keynotes that I give is called seeing the soul behind the role, okay? It's important for leaders to know that when people come into our organizations, everybody is pretty much dragging and invisible suitcase of baggage, all right? They're not just showing up for the role that you've hired them. They are bringing all of the crap that they have dealt with in their whole lives, right? So you've got nurture and nature. You've got the way that they are wired, like they're, they're just their natural nature, right? Are they good at conflict? Are they good at change, right? Like that's like how they're naturally wired, but then you've got the nurture part, which is what they have experienced in their life, okay? And it isn't just the trauma or the drama that maybe they've had at other businesses or other, you know, career stops, but it's all of the stuff, right? It's their family constellation, their family dynamic, what they've grown up with, like, you know, the birth order that they've had, if they've had siblings that have been sick, if they've lost a parent, like whatever it is, people bring all of that with them. And so that's why as being a conscious leader, we have to be aware that we are dealing with complex humans to be a good conscious leader means embracing all of the stuff that all of your people bring with you. And I wanted just to, you know, bring that to life. Now regarding your question about kind of like the intersection of AI and conscious leadership, I don't have all the answers. I do know that it took co-existence and a co-creation, right? Like I use AI as a coach all the time. Oh my gosh, I love it. I go on to AI all the time and I'm like, you're my chief marketing officer, you're this, right? Or like, I'll bring a personal issue to, you know, to my, to my chatbot, right? Like, I use it all the time. It doesn't replace the human interaction, right? So I think it's about like using it as a, as one more tool in your toolbox, but knowing that it's never going to replace that, that personal connection. Look, one thing that AI and chat or whatever it will never have, it will never have its own history. It will never have its own memories, right? It will never have its own imprints from past lives and from past experiences. It is technology tool and yes, it can scrape a lot of data and it can learn how to speak as if it, you know, is an emotional being, but at the end of the day, it's not human. And so it's the memories, it's the empathy, you know, that when I talk with a leader, you know, who has gone through incredible struggle with their child or with a business owner who is struggling to make payroll, right? Because of, you know, cash flow in their business, which I went through in my first business because we were a government contractor and there were so many times where the government didn't pay us because they were closed, but we were still essential and we had to show up, right? Like, that's what AI cannot relate to that, right? So, so at the end of the day, we as leaders, we as conscious leaders, as conscious coaches, we bring our experiences and our empathy as a result of those experiences to our relationships and no AI tool in the world is ever going to be able to replicate that. Yeah, no, I love that. And I think that the the point you make about the sort of the co-existing is really, really important. I think, you know, it's so easy to, you know, when we have some new technology, some new skill, the thing that it's going to replace everything else. And, you know, I was having this conversation with somebody the other day because I was reading the World Happiness Report that just came out that Gallup put together and it was talking a lot about the impact of social media, particularly on teenage girls and how some countries are, you know, regulating it legally and making it inaccessible before 16 and so on. And I was thinking about, you know, I'm 49 and I'm of that generation that grew up without it, but can't imagine living without it now, you know, and I'm so grateful for it because, you know, I've spent half my life living in a different country from where I grew up and social media and WhatsApp and all of these things has allowed me to maintain all these wonderful relationships with people all over the world. And yet, I see the negative impact too. And I think this idea of how do we create, you know, healthy habits around them? How do we, and, you know, create conscious, intentional relationships? And I, you know, and I love the way that, you know, we are, we were taught to use conscious leadership through exchange. And so for those of you who are not familiar with this idea, conscious is aware and leader is impact, right? So thinking of it and that's some very basic ways as we are moving through the world and interacting with others, are we aware? Are we helping others become aware? And then what is the impact that we are having with what we're doing or not? And I think that that's one of the big things with AI is really, you know, noticing its impact and really being thoughtful about how we, you know, co-exist with it in the future. Oh, this is such a juicy conversation, Marissa, but I'm going to start to wrap it out so that we don't talk for hours and hours. I think one of the things that has really emerged in our conversation is the way that you think of yourself in all of these different roles, whether it's through multiple lifetimes through the roles you've had as a mother, you know, mother in different stages now, right? As your kids have, you know, launched into the world. And this, it's, I sort of almost see the sort of spiral of, you know, each experience, each role that you have taken on, you do this beautiful reflection of going in and looking within and noticing what you need here and going out in the world, knowing it was massive impact and then going, this is how that's working. This is what they will need and then going back in. And it's this sort of, I, what I feel in our conversation and I've felt in all of our conversations is this beautiful dogs you have between your willingness and comfort of getting rid of everybody else and all the noise and going, what's really going on? And then learning from that and then going back out into the world and having massive impact and that sort of beautiful dance of the inner and the outer. And on that or any other topic, I would love to know like for my listeners here at Hot Habits, is there one shift or one action or one insight that you would want our listeners to take away from our conversation? Yeah, you know, based on you saying that and I just, Tamzan, thank you for, um, for framing that in a positive light because, you know, I do that. Like I'm out and then I go back in and I feel like, you know, people might see that as flaky, right? Like, oh, she's all in and then she's, you know, she's all in with the community, right? And then she's disappeared, right? And I know that that is kind of what I've done because I need to just step back and restore and replenish and reflect, right? And then I can come back and I re-emerge. And I can see that other people might be like, yeah, that's like really, you know, like erratic or, you know, like, where'd she go? Okay. But you just framed it in such a constructive way. And I'm for that. And so, um, I would say to your listeners that, um, you don't need people's permission to disconnect from the outer world, right? Like, you really need to pay attention to you and to what's bubbling up inside of you and what you need and the permission to retreat. You don't need, and it might confuse people, you know, it might confuse your friends, your family, your other communities, like it might confuse people. And that's okay because you will eventually re-emerge with more wisdom, with more engagement, but you don't need people's permission to listen to what you need for yourself. And I think that that's probably the biggest takeaway that, um, that I would offer. I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think it's a really important lesson, particularly for, for, for women to really take on that, that it's okay to stop. And I suppose also for men who feel like they're the caregivers and the ones who always have to be strong, right? I guess we can see it across all different roles. But yes, the stepping back and letting go. Thank you so much for your time, your reflections and your wisdom and what you're doing in the world, Marissa. Mom, thank you for putting this space for these conversations and what you're doing that's so appreciated. And I'm grateful for the trust. You are so welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today, Marissa, on Hot Habits with Dr. Tams and Esther. Thanks for being here. And thank you for taking the time to listen. Until next time, remember that the way you lead your inner world shapes how you lead on the outside. I'm Dr. Tams and Esther. Thanks for listening to Hot Habits.