Lisa Ryan's Advice? Gratitude as Strategy: Leading with Appreciation in the Age of AI

Hello, today I had a wonderful conversation with Lisa Ryan, Certified Professional Speaker, and her business, Gratitude, which combines gratitude and strategy. The thing that really emerged during our conversation was how good Lisa is at listening to and understanding the needs of her audience and tailoring the data and support she gives, so that they really get the most benefit out of Gratitude. Your nervous system sets the tone. Your energy speaks before you do. How you show up is the culture. I'm Dr. Tamzen Ester and this is Hot Habits, Conscious Leadership in Action. Welcome, welcome today to Hot Habits with Dr. Tamzen. I'm so excited to have my guest. Lisa Ryan is a keynote speaker. She is the author of 12 books and the founder of Gratitude, where she says, as Chief Appreciation Strategies. Her work sits at a fascinating intersection. How do you keep your best people? Build cultures where respect is the norm and make appreciation a strategy not just a nice to have. And now she's going further. Her upcoming 13th book, you heard that right, Smart Plant Aligning AI Automation and People tackles one of the most pressing questions of leadership today. As we race to invest in machines and systems, are we forgetting the humans who make them work? Lisa is also the host of the manufacturer's network podcast, where she has real straight talking conversations with industry leaders about workforce retention and the future of work. I met Lisa in late 2019 when I joined the National Speakers Association. And during COVID, she hosted me for sessions in her home, sharing her wisdom for building a speaking career. Today, I'm so excited that we're going to dive into appreciation, culture, and what it actually takes to lead well when technology is changing every. Welcome, Lisa. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. It's exciting to have you. So at the start of every hot habits conversation, I asked my guests to bring an object with them, something that represents a hot habit in their lives. So I think of it as a way of bringing leadership out of theory and books into everyday reality. So tell me what object did you bring and why did you choose it? Well, I've brought with me my gratitude journal. And because it absolutely changed my life. In 2009, when I started recording every day, five things that I'm grateful for actually writing it down, not only did it lead me to everything that I'm doing today, but I can say that it saved my sanity through the pandemic. It's rewired my brain. My marriage is better. I mean, my marriage is always good, but it just gratitude really makes everything better. And the thing that I like about this journal, and I share it with all my programs, is if you notice, there are no dates. Because dates mess you up when it comes to journal life. Because what happens? You're really good for a couple of weeks, and then something happens. And either you have to go back and fill in the dates, because goodness knows we can't have empty spaces in our journal. Or we just say, I'm a miserable failure, and you just put it to the side where with this, I get busy, I forget whatever, I forgive myself, and I just start the next day and write down those five things. So I have more than a decade, 16 years worth of journals that I can go back and really see the ebbs and flows of life. And highly recommend it. I love it. And that's really like the format of your business title, right? Gratitude, that gratitude is a strategy, not just a nice to have. And I love that because I think most people will think, particularly I can imagine in your industry, that appreciation is like a warm fuzzy, not really a lever for performance, right? So when did you realize that it was actually a habit that had to be practiced and designed for, not just felt? In 2009, I actually went on a fire walk. It was my second fire walk. I did my first one in 1989, but my second one, I actually did with some friends. And as we were driving home from Chicago after having this experience with 3,500 of our closest friends, they were pretty jacked up on the way home. And we decided we really needed a way to keep that energy going. So we figured that we'd open up a Facebook thread because it was 2009, and that's what she did. We shared with each other every day, you know, people we met and things that we learned and all of that. And my friend Mike said, well, why don't we share three things that we're grateful for? And it was that practice that, you know, I just did, I went in with zero expectations. I hadn't heard a gratitude. I mean, I think Mike had just seen it on Oprah. I knew nothing about it, but it was that practice that I was in medical sales at that time. And literally, customers that I hadn't talked to for months, my phone is ringing. Hey, can you come in and sell me some stuff? I had my best year ever. And even after doing it for a year, the following year, almost a year to the date, my medical sales position was eliminated via group conference call with 12 of us getting canned at the same time. And instead of, you know, going into woe was me because this was 2010. So there was a whole bunch of people looking for work. So instead of going to networking events with my resume, you know, like Texas Holden, here you go, hire me, hire me, hire me. I just said, well, what else can I do to find to be grateful in this situation? And I realized that I always wanted to be a speaker. And this was the opportunity. It was literally on my goal, goal list for more than 20 years. And so that's how I know exactly the day that my business got started October 12, 2010. And it's been, it's really shaped because I had the personal practice of the outcomes from my gratitude practice that I could directly tie to that. And I knew in speaking down to the core of my being that that was the message because it was one of those. Let me back up. I wanted to be a speaker. I just didn't know what I was going to speak about. I mean, I was in sales for my career, but I really didn't have a process. And I had done some network marketing. But at that point, I didn't want to swim in that pool. So I had no idea. And then when this gratitude practice come like I said, I was like, this was it. The gates of heaven opened. The angels started singing. And I knew that that was the message I was supposed to bring. One of the things that I think is really interesting about these sorts of practices. And I see it all the time when I'm helping people create habits. And it sort of was bubbling in there as you are talking about this. Is that a lot of people are resistant to things that they feel like there isn't evidence for, right? Or a direct effect on the way their life changes or their relationships change or their business changes. When you're teaching, speaking, writing about this, do you think that there is the smallest possible dose that you say to people? If you just do this, it'll move the needle. No, it's interesting because there is actually a ton of research behind gratitude. And because my audiences tend to be manufacturing construction skilled trades that they're not into all of this fluffy, spiritual, ethereal stuff. So when I'm coming in and I'm sharing the research behind it, I mean, Dr. Robert Emmons at the Greater Good Science Center is really one of the world's foremost researchers on gratitude. And I believe it was 2014 that he was given a $7 million grant to study it. So when people come in and think that it's soft, it's like, I'm sorry, there ain't nothing soft about it because when we see, and you know this well, you know, how physically, I mean, when you do energy research, you can actually see the energy of your heart out to sick, what is like six feet in front of you. And it's all of these positive things. It's choosing positive emotions. It lessens our stress, helps us sleep better, helps us have better relationships. Gets us out of the stress response. So there's all these positive things. And yes, there is the softer, more ethereal, prayerful side of it. But that's not what I talk about. I talk about these are the results that you've got because I experienced them myself. I mean, I love that. I remember starting to read that data about 10 years ago when people started to do it. And to your point earlier, like, I remember one of the things saying the people you live with notice when you start a gratitude practice. I mean, one of the things that I'll say to people, if they're trying to create a new habit and they feel resistant because the time and the effort is I'll say, can you just stop and think of one or two things every day that you're grateful for? And there's something about, it's a little bit like putting on your gym clothes, but not necessarily committing to leave the house, right? Like, it's taking that first little step that starts to create that shift, right? Which I think is the thing that we often forget. I love that. And the data is really important. The hot math is huge, right? It goes out like 30 feet. Absolutely. You were talking about the change in people. I did this official 30-day gratitude challenge several years ago. And actually, my gratitude journal express gratitude experience good has quotes from it. But I had people do the 30-day gratitude challenge. And then at the end, I interviewed people to see what they did. And this one guy, Lee, his quote was literally, my wife said, what are you doing differently? You're not nearly as crabby as you used to be. It just reminded me of that quote that, yes, I mean, Scott, my husband does not keep a gratitude journal, but I've experienced the benefits because I do. One of the things that I think is really interesting about the communities that you work with is, you know, the sort of manufacturing environment. I often think of, you know, it's very hierarchical and that toughness, you know, toughness, right, is based really. So how does, you know, the concept of gratitude and appreciation shift that without feeling soft or out of place? Like, how do you introduce that concept? I mean, you talked about the data and the hard data, but sometimes even data is not compelling to people if they've got that bias that this stuff is just, you know, fluffy for women for, you know, therapy. You fill in the blank, right, all that it's too soft. Well, I think, and here's my, here's my politically incorrect version of that is that you, when you're doing us a program on gratitude, you can either do the girl version or the boy version. And just because of the way that I'm wired and, you know, being in industrial sales and being used to being around, you know, grizzly baby boomers and gen Xers in manufacturing, I'm very clear that I do the boy version for, for lack of a better term at a level that they get it because it doesn't feel soft. So, and the funny thing is, is that 98% of my audience, they absolutely get it because it's almost like I'm giving them permission to connect with their people and be nice to their people and understand that it's not coddling or any of these other things. Now, I do have that one to two percent of people and usually they make themselves very well known. They say, well, come up to me after a program and they're like, that is just a bunch of psycho babble BS. I can't find anybody that wants to work. Nobody wants to be loyal. This generation, nobody wants to work anymore. We just have to cuddle them and what I want to say is, oh, honey, they're leaving you. But I don't actually say that because you know, that would not make for a really good customer experience. And it used to hurt my feelings when I would get the negative responses from that two percent because I'll have a group of, you know, I do these feedback forms during my programs. And generally, what happens? 100% of the people find it's valuable. About 70% of the people would definitely want to hear me again. You know, another part, you know, another 29% say, probably want to hear me again. And there's also those one or two people in every audience that say, probably not. Now, I've only got one definitely not. So it's a full phone. You had one person totally hate my guts. But, you know, and the thing is, I used to feel bad about it, but my message is not for everybody because there's some people until they're willing to hear it. When people come up to me after a program and like, oh, my company really needs you. I know there's not a chance in how that company is going to invest in to bring me in because it's the companies that's the people who are already doing things well. And they want to take it to the next step. Who are the people who are going to do that? The same with you. The people who need to develop positive habits or who need to quote unquote are the least likely. Because for whatever their pain has not gotten to the point that it's less painful to do something else than where they're stuck. No, that's absolutely right. And, you know, I think that's, you know, one of the sort of ties into the question that I was thinking as I was, you know, reading your bio and your books is the connection to here between culture and respect and performance, right? Because, you know, what you're highlighting there is that, you know, sometimes the culture concept, the culture that we are coming into, the culture that people are trying to shift, is very deeply ingrained, right? And so, you know, one of the things that was occurring to me that I was curious about asking you is, you know, in your experience, what's the number one thing that leaders do? And this might be unconsciously that erodes respect faster than anything else. Because when I think about creating a culture or a space web, inviting people like you or me into it to challenge the status quo, right? That having a place where there is respect and or not, you know, can really impact, you know, what the dynamics of the situation. Right. Yeah, I think the number one thing is to, for supervisors, managers, owners to connect to with their employees, to have that relationship that I care about you as a person, not only because I need you to get the job done, so my company makes money and we continue to stay in business, because I see you, I see you and the difference that you're making, I see your skills, I see your talent, I see your heart, you know, all of these things where we're looking at our employees holistically, and it can be, you know, just walking through the facility, walking through the office and just saying hello to people, because if I walk through your office and I see you and I say, hey, Tamzan, how you doing? And I'm used to you being super chipper and you're like, hey, I'm okay. Now, I can go to my office because I'm busy, man, I got stuff to do, or I could say, you know what, Tamzan, you're not your normal self today, what's going on? Is there anything that I can help you out with? Now, just in that five seconds, I don't know that this was the day you were going to give your notice, and you were going to quit because you just weren't feeling connected, but because I stopped and cared enough to notice something with you, that maybe you turn around, you know what, I'm just having a bad day. I really do like working here. It's one of those things at that authenticity that you can't fake. It's, and you cannot overthink your employees, as long as it is coming from a place of authenticity and specificity. Because if I just say, hey, Tamzan, great job. Number one, I've never thanked you because you're, and you're going to be like, oh, what does she want? And number two, it's like, well, what was so great about it? But if I say, you know, Tamzan, I really appreciate the way that you stayed on that call and helped Mrs. Smith until, you know, she got her problem resolved. You really have such a great way dealing with customers and bringing them back down. Now, you know that I'm catching you in the act of doing things well, and I'm noticing it. And I'm sincere in that instead of, I went to a seminar and the speaker told me, I needed to thank five people. All right, thanks, man. All right. Please, no, check, check. No, I mean, what you're alluding to me, looting to is something that I talk a lot about with helping people step out of reactivity, which we know is so destructive and work and relationships, is, you know, mass love's hierarchy, right? It's, you know, when we feel that sense of belonging and love and connection and part of the team and that we're seen and we're recognized, that's when we can then step into the, you know, the higher levels of the pyramid of the hierarchy and get into the spaces of creativity and problem solving and, you know, really shining in our skill set. But we can't do that until we've got those lower levels met. And so often in our society, we get really stuck on the, you know, the high levels for getting that we need to feel safe. We need to know that our mortgages being paid, that we've got food, exercising, we're sleeping and that we feel safe and connected and belonging and part of the team, which I love like the way you're talking about it. Like we all have these different ways of talking about it. And I love the way that you've just articulated that. The piece that I think is really interesting in here and that we're seeing a lot of with the rise of AI is that, you know, there is, I think there's a real fear around how many jobs are going to be lost because AI is taking over and how that fear then plays into all of us. And I think that, you know, one of the things that I've been sort of watching online and reading about is that, you know, this, this sort of underlying thread of, am I replaceable, right? Is my team replaceable? And I'm curious, given your work and your lens and your approach to this, is how do you view appreciation culture as actually answering that fear? There's going to be a lot of jobs that will be replaced. I mean, we have, but automation also replaced a lot of jobs. The difference between automation and AI is when automation came in, the humans were still working side by side with the robots. What was garbage in garbage out? If the humans programmed the robots right, then the robot did the job perfectly. But there was always that kind of human judgment that went into it to design with AI because AI is making the decisions for us. And 99% of the time, AI is amazing and it's awesome and it's good. But what about that small percentage of time when it's not? Because we all know the chat and Claude was, especially chat, totally hallucinates. And when it goes off, it's like, where did that come from? I can't tell you how many times I have to tell chat, don't make stuff up. Oh, sorry. But, you know, the thing is that the AI knows the what, but it doesn't know the why. And even though I've been using chat for probably over three years now, since it, you know, the day, I still remember the day I learned about chat. And it was this, it was like one of those moment type of things. And I know how, how robotic it was at the beginning. And now, how much personality that, you know, chat and Claude both have. And it really is having, like having a conversation with a friend. And it's also not the same as that human interaction. AI knows the history of what happened, but it doesn't necessarily know. Well, why do we have to, you know, watch when we bring in a new vendor because of this happening? You know, why do we have to let machine parts get to room temperature? Because the person who was on the floor for 30 years, that has built up their sensory library. And they can see things and hear things and smell things and feel things that the piece of equipment may not know because it's the one off. And so there's that whole level of, you know, that's what my whole book is about is about, you know, really paying attention to removing human judgment, especially when you think about the fact that we have these baby boomers and older gen Xers starting to leave the workplace. And they're taking all of that tribal knowledge, all of that history, all of that Y, out the door with them. And what's left is we're training people using stimulators and computer screens instead of out in the real world and building up their own sensory library. Right, now that's really interesting. I talk a lot about it with my clients, this idea of not the idea, but the concept of inter-oception, right? Which is the the interior ability we have to recognize what we feel, what we need and pay attention to our senses and how so often in our world, we dampen that down, right? Particularly if we are, if we are a leader or if we are, you know, people, if we're sort of, you know, struggling with boundaries, right? We're like, everybody else's needs are more important than mine. And I'm going to not pay attention whether I need to pee or I need to stop or I need to sleep or I need to walk away, right? It's all about responding to everybody else. And I think that that's a really sort of interesting nuance space where AI, you know, as we kind of build robots and all of those, you know, is going to start dancing in. But right now, I feel like that is just sort of uniquely human, you know, experience, right? That is hard to replicate in this world. Another question that was occurring to me as you were talking about AI is one of the things that AI does really well is a lot of the transactional work. We see that, right? And I, and I have a friend who, you know, has built a whole, you know, AI chatbot to kind of, you know, have that initial part of her sales call, you know, which is amazing, right? And it sort of automates a lot of, you know, her, the time that you spend kind of passing out who's ready for that next level of commitment, right? This financial planner. And I found that conversation with her really interesting, that sort of trying to, you know, create as much automation and as much kind of connection via an AI chatbot. So the sense of automation, to me, particularly with ADHD, where, you know, I crave the dopamine hit of doing fun things, right? Things that are boring and repetitious. I'm like, can something somebody else do it? Either can I hire somebody or can I create a, you know, an AI automation for that? One of the things I think it's really interesting about that is that as these things shift, if we're not paying attention, right? Things can get worse. So, you know, what do you think gets better about human leadership and what do you think gets worse as more of this automation takes over? Do you have a sense of like where you think that's going to go? It's really is interesting because I know that with, especially after the pandemic, I mean, loneliness is an epidemic right now. I mean, we were so disconnected, especially for the first two years of the pandemic. And we have a whole part of a generation that is just, you know, went to college and went to high school and stuff online through computers. And it's interesting because, you know, there's a, I love like crime shows and mystery shows and stuff. And the topic that keeps coming up is these syndromes of younger people basically with their AI, that that is their best friend, that is their confidant, that is who they, you know, listen to to the good or the bad and just kind of breaking that habit of getting away from that. So, going back to your last question as far as the AI and the workplace, we are starved for that human interaction. I mean, it's nice and I can't, and I can tell you, if I have therapy sessions with chat, you know, if there's nobody else to talk to at midnight and I just have to vent, I'm going to do that all day long. And my friends say, Lisa, you know that the robot is telling you exactly what you want to hear and I'm like, and that is exactly the point. So, I think that I just answered that from both ends of the spectrum because on one hand, when I need to vent, we do have tools and technology that, you know, I can use all hours of the day and night that that talks me off the ledge. So, that's the good part of AI and just as far as what it's been able to help me do with my business as far as, you know, analyzing the data, which I'm not good doing. And telling me what to do and, you know, after recording a phone call to say, what are the steps that I need to do after this? So, I don't have to go through my notes, which are just a mess. So, those are the good things, but the bad part is relying too much on it and spending so much time at work and using technology that we really forget about having those fun times and building relationships and phoning a friend. Now, I know that I'm one of the few people on the planet that still really loves the telephone, but, you know, getting together, doing something but just really the best of both worlds and we meet that human interaction. No, I mean, it's really interesting you say that. I was just reading the World Happiness Report that just came out and one of the things it was talking about was AI and teenagers and how, particularly for teenage girls, it's one of the most sort of destructive things. And this is actually, this data is actually being used in many countries around the world like Australia to create laws saying, you know, under 16 or under 14, you can't access social media to try and protect children, you know, from this. But one of the things that was really interesting and that really stuck out for me is that the protective thing, the thing that mediates that sort of negative component is a sense of belonging, right? So if you are a young girl, a young teenager, a girl or a boy and you are, you know, very much sucked into that online world, right? If you do have a deep sense of belonging in your school, with your friend group, in your family, in your sports team and all those places, that can mediate that impact. And I was thinking a lot about how we create, you know, given this automation, given that, you know, I read a report last year that said that 70% of food that is ordered is eaten at home, right? So we can exercise at home, we can work from home, we can order, like we don't need to leave our homes, right? Right, right. Into the loneliness epidemic, right? So, you know, there's this idea of how can we then create in-person events? And I'm, you know, I have worked really hard since moving to a new city and creating a new life for myself to sort of create some automation around that, like I created a book club and I said, like, let's just meet once a month, you know, and if we haven't read the books, it doesn't matter. If we haven't, you know, if we can't be able to cook, we just get a takeout, but it's just about bringing real people together in real time on a regular basis. One of the things as well that occurred to me as I was reviewing your new book, is that, you know, we're spending so much money in AI and automation, which is smart and is useful and, you know, you don't want to be the person who or the company that doesn't pay attention, right? Have you noticed anything or does anything come up in your work where you notice that there there's a space where companies are systematically under investing? And what does that cost them in the long term? I think that there's the philosophy that, you know, you go to a trade show or an event and there's vendors there and they have a lot of bright, shiny objects there. And I know it's a really old commercial, but, you know, everybody expects the easy button where you can go and you can put in this new tool and slap the easy button and everything goes tremendously according to plan. And so really it's about those interactions with your team members when you're bringing in technology to say, tell me about, you know, the worst parts of your job. What are you least like doing? Because maybe that's where we start automating or we start taking some of that off the plate. While at the same time, assuring them that, listen, this is not to replace you. We want to move you to enable you to use your skills better in this area or just having those transparent conversations. Because again, if you're looking for at the newer, newest generations, Gen Z, I mean, authenticity is the one thing that they're looking for, transparency, authenticity. And if you're not going to give it to them, they're not going to stay with you very long. Are they going to always like what you have to say? No, absolutely not. But they know where you're coming from. It's just continuing to have those, those types of conversations because we are not putting this genie back in the bottle. There's still people who are afraid of it. I mean, I'm shocked at the number of my peers, my age, who are still like, what is that? What? And there's still some fear around it. But it's not necessarily, and I'm sure you've heard this before, it's not necessarily that all people are going to be replaced by AI. It's the people who don't know understand and use AI, who don't know understand and use AI, who are going to be the ones that will be replaced. There's no doubt about it. Right. Because then you have that creativity to understand what makes you unique in your job and where you can use AI to replace the bits that are replaceable. Yeah. No, that's really pertinent. Well, I've really enjoyed my conversation with you, Lisa. I know if you keep asking you questions about AI and gratitude. You're talking about this all day. Afterward, gratitude tattooed on the inside of my wrist in Sanskrit because my grandmother used to say, count your blessings. That was her version of gratitude. Every day she lived through World War II and lost her first six pregnancies and the second and third trimester and had all these like, you know, traumatic experiences as a child and her big thing, whenever she would get the doctor and say, how am I still alive? She'd go, the power of love, you know, and so one of her blessings was every day was like, thinking about who she loved and who loved her, you know, I've been moved to the world which I love. But I think one of the things that was really striking and as really stayed with me in our conversation was, you know, how important it is to really understand your audience in what you do, right? Who you're communicating with. And because it's really easy when we get excited about a new technology, a new model, a new framework, new data, a new study to just blur it out without taking that time to pause and think, who are these people I'm trying to help? What is it they're struggling with? And how can I tailor the message so that they get the most out of it? And I think in many ways it's quite unquote obvious, but I think it really struck me because I feel like I get really excited about me. And I'm like, everybody needs to understand the power of this new study. And I'm like, hang on, am I speaking to, you know, blue collar, white collar? Am I speaking to people who work from primary? Am I speaking to people who are parents? Am I speaking to Gen X, Gen Z, you know, baby boomers? Who are I'm speaking to? I really need to understand that. And if I don't do that, they're not going to get the help that they really need from my message and from this data and from this understanding. So that was that clarity that you gave me was really, really awful. So thank you so much for that. You're welcome. If our listeners of hot habits with Dr. Thamesin could take just one thing away from our conversation today and insight or a shift or an action, what would you want that to be? The most important thing that you can do if you don't already have some kind of personal gratitude practice to start one. And it's simply writing down three to five things. First thing in the morning, you know, have that notebook like mine is on the the night stand next to the bed before I take that long walk down the hall. That's what I do. That's how I start my day. And it's it is absolutely changes your life. I love it. Thank you so much for joining us today on hot habits with Dr. Thamesin. Thanks for being here. And thank you for taking the time to listen. Until next time, remember that the way you lead your inner world shapes how you lead on the outside. I'm Dr. Thamesin Esther. Thanks for listening to hot habits.