Beyond Masks: Why Vulnerability is the Core of Courageous Leadership

What happens when a decorated British Army officer and advisor to over 400 CEOs admits that the toughest leadership move isn't strategy. It's taking off the mask. Jonathan Bowman Perks, MBE, joins me to talk about why vulnerability isn't weakness. It's the whole damn point. If you've been performing success instead of living it, this one's for you. Your nervous system sets the tone. Your energy speaks before you do. How you show up is the culture. I'm Dr. Tam's in Aster and this is Hot Habits, Conscious Leadership in Action. Hello, hello, my guest today has been shot at. Advise the head of the British Army, survive the Corporal Jungle at PWC and IBM and has somehow still had time to write best-selling books and host a top ranked global podcast, Inspiring Leadership. I've been a guest. Jonathan Bowman Perks, MBE, has spent nearly four decades helping leaders find their true north, whether that's in a war zone, a boardroom, or the messy, beautiful middle ground of being human in charge of other humans. He's coached over 400 CEOs, been honoured by the Queen, and he's here to get real about the habits, the hard lessons, and what it actually takes to lead with clarity when everything around you is on fire. Jonathan, welcome to Hot Habits. Well, this is lovely. I've been really looking forward to it and thank you for such a warm and generous introduction. I'm thinking, who is this person? I'd love to mint him. I know it's one of the best things about having somebody do an intro for you. You're like, wow, I sound amazing. Well, welcome, welcome. Thank you so much for sending some time with us today on Hot Habits. So at the start of every Hot Habits conversation, I asked my guests to bring an object with them, something that is like a tangible representation of a Hot Habit in their life. So I think of it as a way of bringing leadership out of theory and into everyday reality. So tell me what object did you bring with you today and why did you choose it? I brought my boot. This is the Cypress walkabout boot. It was an award I got, goodness me, 1985 winners. So we won the double mountain marathon in Cypress. Two marathons, up a six and a half thousand foot mountain with kit, three man team, navigating through checkpoints. You don't know what they are until you run to the map and you copy it down. And I think the habit that came from that was the one of resilience at discipline. And when you felt like giving up, which I definitely did at the end of the first days, we were near the summit. And I wanted to walk and my team colleagues wanted to walk. And I thought, yeah, we'll walk. And then I had this little image of my father sitting on a cloud. And he goes, commit or collude your choice, Jonathan. Are you going to win this or are you just going to take the easy option and just do what pleases the others by walking? I went, no, sorry, I'm going to run. And I grabbed them by the shirts. And I said, we are F in running. And I said, okay, okay, we'll run. Take your hands off our shirts. We'll run. And we won the first day. And we set the world record for the second day. Amazing. Amazing. Well, I love that you use the word resilience because one of the things that, you know, is a common theme in your writing and your podcasting and, you know, what you share out in the world is that you talk about how leaders build resilience by embracing vulnerability. And of course, when I read that and sort of started thinking about that and sort of noticed that theme is like, to me, that seems like in polar opposition to the military, you know, I've never been in the military. But, you know, coming from a military background, was that a hard pill to swallow? Because it seems to be like it's an opposition or did the army actually teach you that in a way that, you know, us civilians, you know, wouldn't expect? I think there's a really great question, as always, with your questions. And when I went to boarding school as a young man, and I remember my mother, because by that stage, my father had been killed. His sword is on the back wall for those watching. He was killed age 33, flying and saving the lives of two other pilots. But that's a story in itself for another time. Mother took me to the boarding school and I must have been, I don't know, wait or something like that. And she handed me over to the housemaster. And I remember standing on the pavement, watching her drive away. And I go, she's leaving me with this complete strange man. I'm like, why am I being, what have I done wrong? Why, what's going on? And I really found that particularly hard. So then, as I started to cry, the headmaster looked down at me and he went, what are you doing? Don't snivel. Young men do not cry. Oh, right. Okay. So on when the first mask, and then of course you go and join the British army and you go to the Royal Military Academy Santos, which is one of the finest leadership institutions in the world. I still believe that and they train you to be resilient and see death and destruction to take life, if required, to save, to kill the Queen's enemy. And you learn that you don't show your emotions. It's not a good idea. It's not safe to do so. And the soldiers look to you and there's things blowing up around you, people being shot, mayhem chaos and they go, the bus is great. He's like so unflappable, so calm. Nothing seems to bother him even when hell's breaking loose. And that's the next mask that goes on, that that's the way you should be. And in this regiment, this is the way you behave. And so those masks were put on over the years and I played that part and learned how to lead in incredibly difficult situations. And it's only later on in my 50s and 60s, I'm now 64 this weekend that I've begun to take off the masks and be comfortable being uncomfortable, to be strong enough to be vulnerable, that only the strong can be vulnerable and can admit those 10 words, three phrases that our friend Jeff Nishwitch told us, I was wrong. I don't know and I need some help. I was wrong. I don't know. And I need some help. And I can now use those words. And you wake me up in the middle of the night, Tam's in and ask me a question, I'm not going to make a story up. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm just going to tell it you how it is. Because I've got a finite amount of time left to live, maybe eight years, who knows. And in that time, I'm not going to waste it. And I'm not going to have conversations. And I'm not going to spend an hour that I'll never get back. This is that is well spent. So I will value this. But other things I'll say no to. I love this idea of masks. And like the experiences we have, creating masks that we put on, whether it's like the boarding school mask, the Mendo cry mask, the Mendo ask for help mask, the hyper independent, successful woman, whatever mask, you know, all these masks we put on. And how, you know, this sort of reframe, which I think people like Brunei Brown have been so helpful in us thinking, rethinking, is the vulnerability is a strength, rather than a weakness. When you are working with leaders and CEOs and people who are wearing multiple masks, the first thing that sort of occurs to me is, is there, you know, this is the concept of the keystone habit that if you can figure out your keystone habit, which perhaps is sleep. And if you sleep, you eat well, you exercise well, you meditate, some people it's exercise, some people it's healthy food, right? When you think about leaders wearing these masks, is there a mask that if you can unhook first or get them to drop first, helps with dropping the other masks more easily? Like that kind of keystone mask idea. Yeah, it's very interesting. And I'll use another prop. So for those listening, it's the latest of my three books, but it's called the CEO's Compass Had to Navigate Your Teams Retribution Times, which is where we got to meet and the 400 guests like you are in here. And the reason I share this is that there are eight components of how my wife and I designed this Lee, and whether it be moral question or purpose, question or legacy, those are the keystones, those three, a bit like in a Norman church where those stones as the pressure comes on, they get closer and tighter and stronger. So I think if you've got your moral question and your values, without values like we're seeing with Donald Trump and people like that, the compass is all over the place and anything knows. But when you clear on your values, then you're sure, but when a CEO loses their true north and they go on magnetic north, which at the moment is moving from Siberia across into Canada, it's moving a loss of the magnetic north, they're lost. And it's the gray area. And then if they haven't got a legacy that they're leaving, they don't own the business, they're leaving it better for the person they handed on to stewardship. And purpose and meaning that their life has a spiritual content, a sense of the two moments in your life, as Mark Twain said, the moment you were born and the moment you found out why, that's really what what to give you. And I found out the why. And so living my life on purpose, rather than off purpose, allows me to ask the CEOs, are you living your life on purpose? What is your life purpose? Why? Why are you here? What are you in service of? And so I find those three are key. The others are important. Those three are a bit like you, you use the word keystone habits. I do believe sleep and exercise and good health and nutrition are fundamental to my performance. So I've recently, and then I'll pass it back over to you, terminally, I've recently been diagnosed, that's so new for some years, but with obstructive sleep apnea. Because I have also been found out to have this hard defect that was born with, I never knew about, I only found out a couple of years ago, which limits the length of my life. If I address the obstructive sleep apnea, that will stop the heart failing as early as it might do, I might live a year or so longer. So now we're herring this sort of silence to the lamb's mask, which is quite to laugh or run screaming from the bedroom, is it gives me an extra hour of sleep. Now that's 30% more performance. So you're looking at keystone habits, sleep, this has proved itself in the last two months to me, what a difference. And I've, as a result, I trained four times a week with my personal trainer, not with him all the time, but he comes with me occasionally. But I am now pushing weights at 64. I could never push at 20, because I've got the extra sleep, which has had the knock on effect, and I'm eating healthy. I actually call them the healthy sex habits, sleep, eat, exercise, because I'm all about acronyms and making things easier, because it is. Those are such core habits. Yeah, and they have such a knock on effect. I like that. I will remember the healthy, different habits. Right. So I'm interested in this idea of the true north, because I think people talk about this sort of concept in different ways, in leadership, and in personal development, and in all the different spheres that we move through. I think the first thing that is occurring to me, as I'm sort of noodling on this concept, is in your experience, like what's the single biggest habit or mindset or block, right, that stocks leaders from really knowing what their true north is? Like what gets in the way of that? And I've got a personal story of when I got it wrong myself. So let's go to what I see from all the 64 years of learning good and bad habits and people who had a true north and those who didn't. A true north is your founding principles and values. What you will do, as Oscar Wilde said, but he had his problems, a gentleman or a lady is someone who knows what they will do and what they won't do. And what will you do and what will you not do? And I love Marcus Aurelius, who said, don't look for the third thing. Do the right thing, one, two, because it's the right thing, and three, don't look for the third thing, which is well done, Tamsin. You've done a great job. You did the right thing. You don't look for that. Just do the right thing because it's the right thing. And I think in the past, I've wanted to look for the third thing. I've always wanted to be said, oh, you did the right thing, well done. Not only that, but because a particular is a male issue, you may think maybe it's wider than that with some some women, you know, but I think generates a male issue biologically, we're massively competitive. I know you know lots of competitive women, but men, it's always in a ranking and you have to do well. And I was in the British army where you had to come first on this course or you're constantly ranked and you got an outstanding report. And I'd always had outstanding reports. I got sent to the Royal Ministry Academy Centre to be a top gun instructor at the best of the best. My regiment said, this is our best off. He's going to be there with the best of all the others. And I thought, oh, I've arrived and I wonderful. I'm God's gift. And then they gave me my first year's report and they went, this officer is average. I went, what? What do you mean average? I've always been outstanding, not just not just average, not even good. I've been outstanding. No, no, you are average compared to all these other superstars your average. And I was, I was average, which is why I then reached out to people who known my father, Lieutenant Commander Paul Perks, before he was, well, when he was killed. And to learn from them, because I could he was not an inspiring leader. And I wanted to learn from those who knew my father who said he was a hero and he wasn't inspiring. He was very humble. He was very modest. I've got work on that to be done. But so that is why I had them all to lunch at Santos and learn from them. And there's a story that goes with that. So I think with moral question, this idea of being competitive and trying to always do your best fine, but it can be so intense that people will forget true North. And I did. So I was on a particular course. And and it had become practice between people unofficially that you'd ask someone who'd been on the course before you, you know, can you share with me some of your essays and some of your notes? So and so no work was going on. And I can well learning you because he said, oh yeah, someone taught me and I got his notes. So so there's this unofficial kind of unapproved arrangement that you could learn from other people. And then when you were given this surprise essay, you had a rough idea of the kind of format and layout. And then you'd also get together a few of you and you talk about what was coming up and what you'd heard about what goes on. So you a bit prepared prepared. So I'm always one who wants to be better prepared and do as well as I could in just me others because I finally came out of staff college in the top 10%. Great. I thought I've really arrived. But then others got promoted beyond me. But let's go back to this moment on the course. And it came to the time to do this complicated essay on the future of some tank system. And I wasn't at all interested. And it was very complex and very detailed about the tank size and the engine size and the armor and the explosive reactive armor. Oh goodness me. So I talked to this guy who went on to become a general and one of the top guys in the army. And he said, look, this is why I'm writing here. Look at this. And a few of us gathered around. We looked at his notes and we went away with his ideas and we wrote them as if it was our own work. And it wasn't. It was his work. And so we were then called in when the essays were marked and they said, did you cheat? No, no, no, no. And of course they knew that we had, even though we denied it, like it's done little four-year-old. Oh, I said to my grandson, Riley, this robot vacuum cleaner has just set off. Did you press the button? Because it doesn't it on his own. No, no. I won't be angry with you. Just tell me the truth. No, no, I didn't. And we were just like a four-year-old. No, no, we didn't know anything wrong. Honestly, it was just just our own ideas. And I got tasked with writing an essay on integrity and true. And I have never forgotten that moment. Thank you for the the Colonel who decided he could have fired me. I could have my career could have been over could have left the armed forces because I had acted without integrity without a moral true north. My desire to succeed meant that I became like a Ferrari-seeking banker who will send triple-sea rated stock and mortgage securities and say it's AAA. And it wasn't, you know, it was this. So the habit that the blocs leaders and something that you're saying is something that you see sort of frequently in men is this sort of competitive success sort of the desire to succeed, the desire to be the best. And so it's, you know, in many ways you consider a negative habit which, you know, I mean, one of the things that I find fascinating about working with people around habits is that the definition of a habit is something that is difficult to change, right? So inherent in the definition is that it's an automation that has been created that is not necessarily serving your true north, your big juicy vision, your why, your, you know, your whatever it is that you're building towards, right? And so that's an interesting. So that's a habit that you've had to kind of acknowledge and make a shift. I think, you know, one of the things that the sort of themes that I'm sort of seeing and hearing as you're talking is this idea of the training, right? That's required either to break a habit that is not serving you or to, you know, train so that you can show up, you know, you know, to fight the queen now, King's, you know, enemies. And then the training required a sort of dismantle some of that, right? The removing of the mask. You know, one of the things that, you know, I hear a lot and I see I was at a talk yesterday about founders and how, how to make successful founder chemistry for sort of co-founders, right? How, how you bring people together in a successful way to launch a business. And one of the metaphors that kept coming up was the athlete, right? Which I know you talk about as this idea of the corporate athlete, right? And so this sort of then leaves me to this next question, which is, you know, when you think about a training regimen, right? So, for example, if you're training for a marathon, some days it's going to be rest, some days it's going to be sprint, some days it's going to be tempo round, some days it's going to be weightlifting, right? Stretching, etc. When you think about leaders, do you kind of conceptualise or use a training regimen that supports your leaders? Yeah, everything you said fascinating, there's so, so many themes I could pick up on, training particularly, because I, of course, training for the double mountain marathon, we train for three months every day and we had a very tough regimen that I set for, there was 30 of us training and up and down this mountain, Mount Trudos in Cyprus and it was grueling and it was tough and there were rest days and things like that because you need your rest days, you cannot continually train, and people make this mistake, they think they're just going to keep going harder and harder and harder with no downtime. And that was when one of my guest Anna Hemings and Olympian, she had chronic fatigue syndrome for a year because she just didn't rest and recover. But I think the word that I'd use next to a habit that precedes it is belief. So everything begins in the mind. If the mind can conceive it, the body can achieve it. I mean this up to a realism level that if I believed that I could set a world record on that amount of marathon, I could do it. But if I thought, now it's not possible, like there's that famous story about the five minute mile exactly what I was going to say, yeah, as soon as one person breaking it then another and then the whole host of people break it. So I do believe in the work of Nancy Klein, we both enjoyed her work and the promise that change everything I won't interrupt you means a lot to me. But Nancy been a great mentor to me. And Nancy's concept that really you have untrue limiting assumptions that you live as if they are true. But they're untrue. And I see it as a bit like if you remember the road runner with boulders and things like this. I have this image of the road runner and there's this huge boulder blocking the canyon and you're running towards it. You can't go through. There's a boulder here. But actually you got with a big pin and you touch it and it's actually inflatable boulder because there's an untrue limiting assumption you live as if true. But actually the obstacle is the way Marcus really is and that the classic the classic and you've got some lovely children. My daughter Harriet who's now got her own daughter Sophia here. When Harriet was about I don't know she was about nine. She was doing some maths and she went daddy I can't do this. So I thought I'm going to practice this untrue limiting assumption lives as if true. And I went okay, honey. And if you could do it how would you do it? And she went oh I did this way. Now what happened there? She had an untrue limiting assumption. I believe that she couldn't do it. And I said okay and if you could do it how would you do it? And she instantly this little mouse in the running around the maze when it's this way. And she found a route. So that works for adults as much as for children and I have learned time and again and particularly with the kind of leaders that you and I work with to really get to the heart of what is their belief system? And where did this come from? Not that I want to psychoanalyze them and you're much more experienced looking back at where it's come from. But actually what if that wasn't true? What would you do if you could? Whatever how would you go about it? And they start to do it which then changes their habit, change your habit, you change your lifestyle and you change your destiny to use that famous quote. Yes and I think you know what's interesting as well about that is I think we have this idea sometimes that it needs to be very complicated right or that it requires multiple steps. And I think yeah I went to a talk a few years ago and it was I loved that the it was at million dollar round table in Athens and it was I was one of the speakers and and the person who came on a couple of places after me talked about how we often have this idea that when we want to expand our comfort zone it needs to be this really you know sort of huge glass breaking door breaking kind of massive shift for it to actually be meaningful and to create some kind of sustainable long term change and impact. And he made the argument which I think is absolutely right that it can just be a tiny little shift and that it doesn't need to be this massive sort of almost sort of violent you know right so this like idea of like like with training right like you know if you add a pound to your weights and you do that every week that's 50 pounds and a year right like you know we have this idea so it has to be this really sort of huge shift and I think when we sort of slow down and go actually you know the the training regimen can be you know mental physical emotional all of the different places that we play in right and that we have to push up against but it doesn't have to be huge right it's you know one of the things that I sometimes work with my clients on so for example I've got a client who wants to start working out before they go to work and I'll say to them just like put your sneakers you know you're running shoes or you know like you're running kit like in a pile next to the shower so when you walk into the bathroom in the morning to brush your teeth you're like huh and maybe the first day you'll put the clothes on maybe the second day you'll leave the house you know so you know it's just like taking that little stuff doesn't have to be this massive thing right well you make me smile because that's exactly what this morning happened last night before I went to bed I took out my running clothes and I put them in the bathroom by the lose so when I I get up about half an hour for my wife she just likes that extra little bit of a lion with the dogs just waiting for me to get them out for a run but I'll go into the bathroom and I'll do my user morning routine but I will end up putting on my running kit and what is interesting is the dogs are in the next room just lying there but as soon as I put on my running underpants they hear it and then other things can be going on but they hear the underpants going and they know I'm about to go for the run and so they react it but I I think what you're touching on these tiny shifts one leader said to be once that she called it TNT tiny noticeable things that are explosive TNT tiny noticeable things little micro habits that people notice what you do and it's explosive for you and for them and this idea of incremental change I mean you know the all this you know does it make the boat go faster compounding impact of things but I I've seen this with the consistency of eye train weight train for 60 to 70 minutes four times a week and I run six times a week not very far three five kilometers with the dogs in the morning and then I'll wait train on four of those days I've been doing that now for a number of years and and it's it's been really great and that discipline and that resilience comes from that it's not and that it begins my day so I actually allocate until about 10 30 11 of the day is all about that book ending the start of my day you every knows about book and in the beginning the end of the day you can control it more but why I say this is with my personal trainer I had this belief that I'll just train at this level of weights and that's probably because I'm an older guy and he went well what if you could do another 10 another 10 kilograms on this I don't know no no I can well I don't suppose I could well how I had a 10 how hard was that I said well it was I suppose it was a seven he said working let's put 10 on ready yeah and then we did that set and then I I went and got a drink and came back and did again he'd slipped on 10 again and I pushed that out and I went that was pretty hard seemed like heavier he goes it was I put 10 kilograms I had 10 kilograms on I didn't know that so I then achieved something I didn't know it's almost like this this belief so I was born with this congenital heart defect I didn't explain it but basically my heart works at 50 percent I never knew that so I joined the British Army had they known they would never let me in I spent 20 years in the British Army I set this world record for the double mountain marathon I did triathlons I did airborne training I got my my parachute wings and my moonberry I was very proud of all that had I known I had a heart defect I would never have joined the arm I would never have these I got no I have a heart so actually sometimes I believe it's a bliss fragrance if you if you're told something you can't do it because of you believe them yeah no that I think that's really interesting and I think also you know the other sort of theme that you're talking about which is something that I coach my clients on is this is the the the the doing something in a regular committed habitual way you know which does a number of things like it builds this sort of it builds the resilience it builds the habit and the structure and the kind of what I think of as and talk about as like self-trust this I'm committing to and I'm following through so you are you know you're acting in coherence with your values and your you know the things that your goals right you're doing them right which creates self-trust right you know one of the things that I'll say to my clients is when you cultivate habits in a regular way whether it's you know always sending an email after a sales call whether it's you know filing your taxes at this date rather than the night before they're due etc etc you are doing these intentional behaviors so that in a you know the shit hits the fan moment you have the skill set there to activate the habit that you need to be the right kind of leader the right kind of you know person somebody who's working in alignment with your values and so on right so sort of with that idea of like I talk about it as like doing the doing the things in an intentional way so that when you when you need it and in a reactive moment you have the neural pathways the motor training the proprioceptive awareness the fill in the blank the mindset to activate it under stress what in your experience does a resilient leader do differently on a you know ordinary Tuesday morning that pays off when the proverbial has the fan yeah and I'll use a prop for those who can see of the book again with the inspiration compass and use use the words self-trust intentional coherence and add add integrity an integration so when you're doing all the habits or all the elements that make an inspiring leader you are acting with integrity you're integrated when you miss a bit out like your health you might have a habit for junk food and a sweet tooth and sugar as your addiction which it is it's as you know fast foods as we know is now proving to be as dangerous the smoking was 20 30 years ago but yet there's still a whole industry built around it but if you're if you've got that bit wrong you are disintegrated you are not in integrity you're disintegrated and things fall apart so you actually it is like keeping an eye on all aspects to make the whole thing with integrity integrated your whole life you're so you can't be one person at work and another person at home and I know I've met many CEOs I've coached who've gone yeah but at home I'm like this but at work I'm like that and I go that's utterly disintegrated so like who are these two people can we bring them together and why can't you be the same person in both why do you have to be a different this is back to the masks I have to wear this mask at work and the Japanese talk about the three masks the outer mask for everybody the mask for the family and then you take it all off and there's the final mask you look in the mirror and you like the man or woman in the mirror or you don't and there've been times when I haven't but now looking in the mirror without being smug about it I see myself with all my mistakes my blemishes the things I've done wrong in my life and I can live with that every day but I think this idea of intentionality your words coherence integrity that leads to self trust because you know you're going to be living these hot habits you can be living in these certain ways and because that's what I do this is not what I do I don't do junk food I do clean food I don't do I don't know lasing around I get up at 7 a.m. every day whatever happens I'm consistently getting up at 7 and consistency as you know with sleep is a very good habit so so I think that's what what works for the most successful people and by success of course you go what is success it's climbing the ladder and finance lean as the wrong wall it's whatever you set your priorities in mind it's my my relationship and the love I have for my wife being here now health family CEO's compass the book the podcast experiences and then charity giving back to our foundation charity helping the victims advance against women and girls I think you know one of the things that really sticks with me sort of listening to you is you know the the way that you know going into the army and then going into sort of corporate which a lot of these a lot of the places that you've played are very kind of rule bound and structured and ritualistic in the you do this you follow this you you know you you continue along and that what you have done is you've taken the the good bits of that right the I'm going to commit to my regular daily exercising I'm going to commit to my sleep I'm going to commit to eating healthily I'm going to commit to the things that I know serve my my true north right allow me to live in alignment and create self trust yet you don't hold on to them in a way that is rigid and you know creates an inaccessibility around things like vulnerability and connection and intimacy which you know we sort of touch at the beginning with the like the don't cry like what are you sniffling for right like which you know I mean having had a father who went to eaten and all of that like I am I'm familiar with that world right so I think that's the thing that really stays with me is that you you took those those sort of you know really useful pieces out and then made them your own which I think for me is really what you leadership is about is is similar I'm a Buddhist and I one of the things that I've always loved about Buddhism is the you know when you die when I die when you die like just you don't believe everything I say go out and check it out for yourself like read all the things listen to all the stories read all the books but don't believe it all right go out I love the frame I love the fact that your Buddhist because I am buying connection Buddhist so I every day when I go after I've trained in the gym one of my other routines 20 minutes in the hot tub I'm lucky enough to be able to afford a hot tub in the garden beautiful hot tub sit in there and I have Buddhist teachings that I listen to and it's also about 80 different ones on YouTube there's some wonderful ones and also if I can't sleep generally I've got without tech but there was a phase I went through and I couldn't sleep before I got the the CPAP machine for the obstructive sleep out near where I would listen to Buddhist teachings until I went to sleep I then went and did the 11 day Buddhist for passenger retreat which was life changing and pretty tough um particularly because the day before I went the cardiologist said you have 10 years to live and oh now I'm going off on a 10 days down retreat and I'm going to be on my own coming to tell me thinking about that and I can't talk to anybody yeah so I I really find the the fundamental principles and I'm talking to the the knowledgeable one but but just as a layman the the impermanence and the fact that things are always changing the non attachment and and the beginner's mind are of three particular things that serve me incredibly well I don't know what your thoughts are yeah no I mean beginner's mind I think is huge because it one of the things that I love about beginner's mind concept is that in the mind on expert there's only one way to do it in a beginner's mind there's multiple ways which you sort of you sort of articulated with your conversation with your daughter about the you know doing him at so much right so that's one of the things that I love about the the you know the concept of the Buddha of the beginner's mind I mean there are there are many things that I absolutely love about Buddhism but I think you know the one thing that I also find fascinating which I'm sure is familiar to you with you know your past is that when we face death we can live holy right we're not scared of death we can be in the moment when we you know combination of you know being in the military and your health diagnoses like this idea and I sort of navigated it as a parent of you know a child who battled cancer right like when you're sitting there thinking you know these lives are precious and they may not go in the way that we thought or hoped or believed or you know expected right right let me get comfortable with a concept of death and it is interesting to me as a society I mean we can go off on a whole tangent and the way we are not great at handling death but when we help but when we do get comfortable with death like I've made a death playlist for my kids I'm like when I die these are the songs I won't play it at my funeral like another one bites the dust I'm like that's funny like let's have the list laugh at my funeral like not because it's funny that I'm dead but like a little levity there's so many connections between you and I which I find fascinating I love this concept of a good life and a good death and I am ready for death now when it comes it comes and so every day is a bonus because my brother died of metastatic cancer he was told it was my other brother the surgeon who recognized this and said I I know it's we're in COVID but this isn't COVID you've got it's much more serious go and have a scan had a scan it was good gone everywhere he had to have radiation in his brain had to have a vertebrae removed pins at his leg they tried it all but it was too late and within 10 weeks he was dead so he had all sorts of plans and he wasn't really prepared for that and I still remember the final conversation we had sitting outside where he just had his operation was sitting outside his his bungalow he lived a quite a simple life but that will stay with me and the fact is that I think the combination of stoicism which I do try and practice a lot that's a lot of my beliefs but the stoicism and buddhism are so aligned I was almost like how do we have the Greeks and the Romans over here and at the same time over there was Buddha doing his experience and they are so aligned and the wisdom of both I can be listening to a playlist about stoicism and one about buddhism I'm going which is rich I like and so this whole idea of preparing to live your life as if you might die tomorrow that that is I find makes my life so much simpler it's really it's not a car but all and I think I ought to play another one bites the dust when I go because you know is back to that one you know man plans and god laughs right absolutely absolutely well I've had such a fun conversation with Ejonathon but I think we need to wrap it up so our listeners can get on with their day so I'm going to end with if our listeners could take away just one thing from our conversation and that could be an insight or a shift or an action what would that be that only the strong can be vulnerable and have a discipline and have a consistent routine thank you so much Jonathan for joining us today on hot habits with Dr. Thames and conscious leadership in action thank you thanks for being here and thank you for taking the time to listen until next time remember that the way you lead your inner world shapes how you lead on the outside I'm Dr. Thames and Esther thanks for listening to hot habits